Thank you Jeff (& Donald) for your insightful piece on the intersection of Schema Therapy & Stoicism. As an integrative relationship therapist & coach, as well as a Stoic student & practitioner, I've incorporated Terry Real's Relational Life Therapy concept of the Functional Adult (Healthy Adult) into my work with individuals & couples. He adapts Pia Mellody's approach to managing co-dependency & clearly articulates the qualities, characteristics, attributes & most importantly, practices, required to develop the Functional Adult in all our relationships, intimate as well as social. The nine daily practices Terry recommends to develop our Functional Adult are set out here (http://vivianbaruch.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/1.-What-is-Full-Respect-Living.pdf), and are expanded in his book "The New Rules of Marriage". They tie in very neatly with Stoicism as well as mindfulness practices.
I see many parallels between schema therapy and Cybernetic Value Fulfillment Theory proposed by Collin DeYoung and Valerie Tiberius in 2022. They define well-being as the perceived ability to move towards one's values while having minimal conflict between them. Brian Little Personal Project Analysis is a good framework to identify ones values and well were moving towards them. I wrote extensively about these topics in the draft of my Ebook:
I'll take a look - it certainly looks like you do very detailed analysis of these texts and I can appreciate that there are divergent interpretations of the specific language and terms :)
It is not so much that the Dichotomy of Control is a modern invention.
It is not so much that the idea that we control our own thoughts, is weird,
It is that what Epictetus was actually teaching does not get discussed at all, and he repeats the same themes repeated throughout the discourses, and people are fixated on two dubiously translated lines taken out of context. Has anybody read Discourse 1.1 on what is up to us? The faculty of reason as the only thing that is ours at all.
Socratic moral intellectualism:
There is no point having anything or embarking on any project not understanding, what you have, what it is for, how to use it, or whether your project is completely dumb and self-defeating. Knowing what you are doing, with what and why, is the only thing that gives any value to anything at all.
That self knowledge, an adequate understanding of the world and a rational understanding of values is the only way to achieve freedom and happiness,
SOCRATES: Then ... the sum of the matter appears to be that the goods of which we spoke before are not to be regarded as goods in themselves, but the degree of good and evil in them depends on whether they are or are not under the guidance of knowledge: under the guidance of ignorance, they are greater evils than their opposites, in as much as they are more able to minister to the evil principle which rules them; and when under the guidance of wisdom and prudence, they are greater goods: but in themselves they are nothing?
CLEINIAS: That ... is obvious.
SOCRATES: What then is the result of what has been said? Is not this the result -- that other things are indifferent and that wisdom is the only good, and ignorance the only evil?
CLEINIAS: [Agreed.] (281d-e)
And here is all four Stoic virtues. :
Wisdom (phronesis) is a knowledge of what things must be done and what must not be done and of what are neither, or a knowledge of what are good things and what are bad and what are neither for a naturally political creature (and they prescribe that it is to be so understood with regard to the other virtues);
Self-restraint (Temperance) is a knowledge of what things are worth choosing and what are worth avoiding and what are neither;
Justice is a knowledge of apportioning to each its due;
Bravery (Courage) is a knowledge of what things are terrible and what are not and what are neither;
Stupidity is ignorance of what things are good and what are bad and what are neither, or ignorance of what things are to be done and what not to be done and what are neither;
Lack of restraint is ignorance of what things are worth choosing and what are worth avoiding and what are neither;
Injustice is ignorance not apportioning to each its due;
Cowardice is ignorance of what things are terrible and what are not and what are neither.
They define the other virtues and vices as well in a similar fashion, keeping to what has been stated.
More generally, they say that virtue is a disposition of the soul in harmony with itself concerning one’s whole life.
Great article, thank you! It's amazing how ancient Stoic philosophy still has practical applications in the modern world of psychology.
Thank you!
Broadly useful and helpful language, content, and thinking tools, and for applying the Stoical “view from above”!
Thank you, Ann.
Thank you Jeff (& Donald) for your insightful piece on the intersection of Schema Therapy & Stoicism. As an integrative relationship therapist & coach, as well as a Stoic student & practitioner, I've incorporated Terry Real's Relational Life Therapy concept of the Functional Adult (Healthy Adult) into my work with individuals & couples. He adapts Pia Mellody's approach to managing co-dependency & clearly articulates the qualities, characteristics, attributes & most importantly, practices, required to develop the Functional Adult in all our relationships, intimate as well as social. The nine daily practices Terry recommends to develop our Functional Adult are set out here (http://vivianbaruch.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/1.-What-is-Full-Respect-Living.pdf), and are expanded in his book "The New Rules of Marriage". They tie in very neatly with Stoicism as well as mindfulness practices.
I've written two pieces on the practices we can use to develop our Functional Adult, which as you say, is an aspirational & values-based direction of travel, which may be of interest: "Your Functional Adult & Adaptive Child in Relationship" ((https:/vivianbaruch.com/2022/07/01/your-functional-adult-and-adaptive-child-in-relationship/) and "Managing the Reactions of Your Inner & Outer Child"(https://vivianbaruch.com/2023/07/04/the-reactions-of-your-inner-child-and-outer-child/).
Thank you, Vivian. It sounds like you take a very thoughtful approach to helping clients clarify their inner Functional Adult.
"Valuism is a philosophy I just recently gave a name to,"
It is hedonistic subjectivism, with a strange multiplicity of agents. .
Problem is you are caught a self referential loop with no idea if you are right or wrong, living, well or badly or harming yourself or not.
Marking your own homework, or rather marking the homework of the menagerie of ghosts that inhabit your mind.
I see many parallels between schema therapy and Cybernetic Value Fulfillment Theory proposed by Collin DeYoung and Valerie Tiberius in 2022. They define well-being as the perceived ability to move towards one's values while having minimal conflict between them. Brian Little Personal Project Analysis is a good framework to identify ones values and well were moving towards them. I wrote extensively about these topics in the draft of my Ebook:
https://duddhawork.com/quant-self/cybernetic-needs.html
I actually quoted your definition of happiness in it. Good stuff. Love the balanced and integrated view of the field.
Thanks for all your work.
Thank you Olivier. I was not previously aware of DeYoung and Tiberius' work.
You may also be interested in Spencer Greenberg's conceptualization of "Valuism" (https://www.spencergreenberg.com/2023/02/doing-what-you-value-as-a-way-of-life-an-introduction-to-valuism/).
There is no discussion of control in Epictetus.
This is why not.
https://livingstoicism.com/2023/05/13/what-is-controlling-what/
This is what he was actually talking about.
https://livingstoicism.com/2023/05/10/epictetus-enchiridion-explained/
I'll take a look - it certainly looks like you do very detailed analysis of these texts and I can appreciate that there are divergent interpretations of the specific language and terms :)
It is not so much that the Dichotomy of Control is a modern invention.
It is not so much that the idea that we control our own thoughts, is weird,
It is that what Epictetus was actually teaching does not get discussed at all, and he repeats the same themes repeated throughout the discourses, and people are fixated on two dubiously translated lines taken out of context. Has anybody read Discourse 1.1 on what is up to us? The faculty of reason as the only thing that is ours at all.
Socratic moral intellectualism:
There is no point having anything or embarking on any project not understanding, what you have, what it is for, how to use it, or whether your project is completely dumb and self-defeating. Knowing what you are doing, with what and why, is the only thing that gives any value to anything at all.
That self knowledge, an adequate understanding of the world and a rational understanding of values is the only way to achieve freedom and happiness,
Euthydemus.
SOCRATES: Then ... the sum of the matter appears to be that the goods of which we spoke before are not to be regarded as goods in themselves, but the degree of good and evil in them depends on whether they are or are not under the guidance of knowledge: under the guidance of ignorance, they are greater evils than their opposites, in as much as they are more able to minister to the evil principle which rules them; and when under the guidance of wisdom and prudence, they are greater goods: but in themselves they are nothing?
CLEINIAS: That ... is obvious.
SOCRATES: What then is the result of what has been said? Is not this the result -- that other things are indifferent and that wisdom is the only good, and ignorance the only evil?
CLEINIAS: [Agreed.] (281d-e)
And here is all four Stoic virtues. :
Wisdom (phronesis) is a knowledge of what things must be done and what must not be done and of what are neither, or a knowledge of what are good things and what are bad and what are neither for a naturally political creature (and they prescribe that it is to be so understood with regard to the other virtues);
Self-restraint (Temperance) is a knowledge of what things are worth choosing and what are worth avoiding and what are neither;
Justice is a knowledge of apportioning to each its due;
Bravery (Courage) is a knowledge of what things are terrible and what are not and what are neither;
Stupidity is ignorance of what things are good and what are bad and what are neither, or ignorance of what things are to be done and what not to be done and what are neither;
Lack of restraint is ignorance of what things are worth choosing and what are worth avoiding and what are neither;
Injustice is ignorance not apportioning to each its due;
Cowardice is ignorance of what things are terrible and what are not and what are neither.
They define the other virtues and vices as well in a similar fashion, keeping to what has been stated.
More generally, they say that virtue is a disposition of the soul in harmony with itself concerning one’s whole life.
Arius Didymus (Stobaeus Epitome of Stoic Ethics)
It is Socratic.
https://www.amazon.com/Epictetus-Stoic-Socratic-Guide-Life/dp/0199268851